Podcasts

I am creating these podcasts out of a deep curiosity and passion for the many ways mindfulness is taught, practiced, and lived. Through these conversations, I hope to offer spaces for reflection, dialogue, and inspiration.

On the Cushion: The Mindfulness Educators Podcast focuses on the art of teaching mindfulness and meditation - how educators guide others and hold space with authenticity, skill, and care.

InsideMindfulness widens the lens. Through conversations with people from diverse backgrounds and walks of life, the podcast explores how mindfulness, meditation, and related contemplative practices shape spirituality, awareness, and compassion.

For each podcast, I draw out key teachings, images, and metaphors from the conversation, offering reflections that I hope will support and nourish you in your own work - whether as a meditation teacher, a practitioner, or someone simply curious about living with greater awareness. See below.

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On the Cushion with Clive Holmes

Based in South West Scotland, Clive Holmes has over 25 years’ experience teaching meditation at Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery and international Samye Dzong centres.

He has completed a year-long intensive retreat, studied with many teachers across Asia and Europe, and holds a degree in Western Philosophy.

In this episode we explore Clive’s background and his inspiring and gentle approach to teaching meditation.

  • Clive co-edited Taming the Tiger and Restoring the Balance by Choje Akong Tulku Rinpoche and holds an honorary Teaching Fellowship at Aberdeen University’s School of Education.

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  • 1. Model "Relaxation and Kindness"

    Clive emphasises that a teacher's most powerful tool is their own state of being. He suggests that you should aim to communicate a sense of "grace, luminosity, and clarity." If the teacher embodies unconditional warm-heartedness, it creates an "affiliative effect" that helps students feel safe enough to relax.

    2. View Mindfulness as "Remembering to Remember"

    Move beyond a rigid definition of mindfulness. Clive describes it as a "homecoming" to the present moment. It is the practice of recollection - noticing when we have spun off into ego stories or overthinking and gently returning to awareness.

    3. Prioritise Flexibility and Adaptability

    When asked how to recognise a good teacher, Clive’s answer is simple: flexibility. A teacher should adapt their practices to the circumstances of their own life and the specific needs of the students in the room, rather than sticking to a rigid, one-size-fits-all script.

    4. Address the "Foundation of Neurosis"

    You cannot build a "palace on quicksand." Clive notes that many Westerners try to layer meditation on top of deep-seated trauma or neurosis. Teachers should be aware of "healing the wounds" and perhaps incorporate frameworks like Internal Family Systems (IFS) to help students navigate their different "selves" and inner "tigers."

    5. Create a "Safe Space" for Practice

    Deep meditation requires the body to feel safe. Clive uses his voice, humor, and poetry to lower the students' defenses. He uses the metaphor of boiling water: only when the water cools (the mind settles in a safe environment) can the surface become a mirror.

    6. Balance Stillness with Movement

    "Too much sitting is probably part of the problem in our culture." Clive recommends balancing sitting meditation with physical movement like Qigong, Tai Chi, or walking meditation. This helps students become "embodied" and prevents them from getting stuck in their heads.

    7. Stay Within the "Self-Care Zone"

    As a teacher, you should encourage students to go beyond their comfort zone to find growth, but strictly ensure they never leave their self-care zone. This is especially important for students with mental health issues or unprocessed trauma.

    8. Use Simplicity and Directness

    Avoid overcomplicating teachings with "layers and layers of words." Clive highlights the "Buddha of Infinite Simplicity," noting that the ego-intellect loves to make things complex to protect its domain. Simple, direct pointers allow the teaching to resonate like a pebble dropped in a pond.

    9. Teach from Personal Retreat Experience

    Clive believes it is essential for teachers to "go in to go out." Regular retreats allow teachers to face their own obstacles, distractions, and "ego-shadows." This ensures that when you teach, you are sharing genuine experience rather than just repeating words "like a parrot."

    10. Be a "Spiritual Friend" (Kalyana-mitra)

    Instead of positioning yourself as an unreachable authority figure, view yourself as a Kalyana-mitra or spiritual friend. This involves holding space, embodying stability, and planting simple sentences or insights that students can take away and apply to their own lives.

  • 1. The Motorised Tripod (Mindfulness vs. Chaos)

    Clive compares the untrained mind to a camcorder strapped to a horse; the resulting footage is shaky, noisy, and meaningless.

    • The Lesson: Mindfulness acts as a motorised tripod. It doesn't change the "scenery" of your life, but it stabilises the camera so you can finally see the world with "BBC quality" clarity and insight.

    2. The Stained Silk (Purification)

    Imagine a beautiful piece of silk that you want to dye a brilliant saffron color. If the silk is covered in mud, the dye won't take; you'll just have stained fabric.

    • The Lesson: We often try to "dye" our minds with meditation while our "silk" is still muddy with neurosis and conditioning. We must first purify the stains (unprocessed trauma and habits) so the practice can actually transform us.

    3. One Candle Lighting Another

    Clive references the Buddha’s teaching that one candle can light a hundred others without its own flame diminishing.

    • The Lesson: This represents enthusiasm. A teacher’s role isn't to "give" knowledge away, but to use their own "flame" (joy and practice) to ignite the potential already existing within the student.

    4. The Mirror in the Water

    When water is boiling, the surface is full of bubbles and chaos. When it cools and settles, the surface becomes a mirror.

    • The Lesson: You cannot "force" the mind to be a mirror. You simply provide the safe space and "cool" temperature for the mind to settle. Once the agitation stops, clarity (insight) happens naturally.

    5. Taming the Inner Tiger

    This is a central theme in Clive’s work, referring to the "wild" aspects of our ego and emotions.

    • The Lesson: You don't "kill" the tiger or demonise your difficult emotions. Instead, through Internal Family Systems (IFS), you bring the tiger into the family structure, where the "True Self" sits at the head of the table as the conductor of the orchestra.

    6. The Swiss Army Knife

    Clive describes the various techniques he teaches (body scans, breathing, visualisation, Qigong) as a Swiss Army knife.

    • The Lesson: Different life situations require different tools. Sometimes you need the "scissors" of sharp focus, and other times the "nail clippers" of gentle self-care. A teacher provides the full toolkit so the student is prepared for anything.

    7. The Parachute

    He mentions that opening up to meditation can sometimes be like "opening Pandora's box" for people with deep-seated issues.

    • The Lesson: The teacher must be there like a parachute. When a student's old conditioning begins to fall away or they feel overwhelmed by what they discover, the teacher provides the support to ensure a safe landing.

  • Find out more about Clive’s work here.

On the Cushion with Bill Paterson

Bill Paterson is a long-standing member of the Mindfulness Association, beginning his journey in 2011 and completing the Mindfulness-Based Living (MBLC) Course teacher training in 2017. He has undertaken extensive study in mindfulness, compassion, insight, supervision, and person-centred approaches, and has taught the MBLC to more than 60 diverse groups across Scotland in the public, private, and third sectors.

In this episode, I talk with Bill about his lived experience of a, and how it shapes both his teaching and his therapeutic work in the world.

  • In 2017, Bill developed a Fife-wide mindfulness-in-schools project - later adopted by Fife Education and supported by Fife CAMHS - and in 2019 played a key role in launching Mindful Nation Scotland at the Scottish Parliament.

    He now integrates his mindfulness and compassion training into his counselling work, offering walk-and-talk therapy in natural settings. Bill has also published research exploring how mindfulness and compassion training influence men’s perceptions of masculinity.

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  • 1. Leverage the Power of a "Soothing Voice"

    Bill notes that his first encounter with mindfulness was through John Kabat-Zinn’s voice, which he found incredibly soothing. As a teacher, your vocal tone is a tool for regulation. A calm, grounded voice can be the first step in helping a student’s nervous system relax before they even begin the mental practice.

    2. Move from "Head" to "Body"

    Especially when working with academics or professionals, recognise that they are often "all in their heads." Bill emphasises that practices like the body scan are vital because they provide evidence that "the hands are okay, the feet are okay," which helps settle the unsettled mind.

    3. Use the "Common Sense" of Language

    Drawing from his PhD research on Antonio Gramsci, Bill highlights how language creates our "norm." As a teacher, be mindful of the language you use. To reach people who might be sceptical (the "non-tree-huggers"), use accessible, non-religious language that resonates with their everyday reality.

    4. Foster the Feeling of Being "Held and Heard"

    Bill identifies that all human beings seek two things: to be held and to be heard. A teacher’s job is not just to deliver instructions, but to create a relational space where students feel seen and safe. This "holding space" is often more transformative than the meditation technique itself.

    5. Create a "Common Language" for Mental Health

    When Bill worked with schools and CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services), he insisted on teaching teachers, parents, and students simultaneously.

    • The Lesson: By giving everyone a shared vocabulary for anxiety, sadness, and presence, you create a support network rather than an isolated practice.

    6. Integrate Mindfulness with Movement

    Bill’s background in Tai Chi and Qigong taught him that the body is the "interface" for the mind. For many, especially those with high energy or "ultra-masculine" backgrounds, sitting still is difficult. Incorporating movement helps bridge the gap between physical action and mental stillness.

    7. Take the Practice Into Nature (Eco-Therapy)

    One of Bill’s most successful adaptations is "Walk and Talk" therapy.

    • The Lesson: You don't need a quiet room to teach. Practicing in the elements-facing the wind, rain, or sunshine-helps students relate to their internal "weather" and fosters a sense of awe and the sublime.

    8. Be "Non-Directive" When Necessary

    Through his counseling training, Bill learned the value of "getting out of the way." While a teacher must guide a practice, they must also allow space for the student’s own experience to emerge without over-instructing or "fixing" them.

    9. Recognise "Full Catastrophic Living"

    Bill came to mindfulness during a period of redundancy, injury, and anger. Teachers should validate that mindfulness isn't just for calm moments-it is specifically designed for "the long probation periods of life," shame, and physical pain. Meet students where their struggle is most "brutal."

    10. Understand the "Silence, Stillness, and Spaciousness"

    Bill summarises the core of the practice into these three qualities. A teacher should aim to help students find:

    • Silence: Quietening the internal monologue.

    • Stillness: Settling the physical and emotional reactivity.

    • Spaciousness: Creating room so that they are no longer "trapped" by their thoughts.

  • 1. The "Full Catastrophic Living" (The Broken Machine)

    Bill uses Kabat-Zinn’s phrase to describe his life when he was hit by redundancy, a newborn baby, and a spinal injury simultaneously.

    • The Imagery: He describes himself as "absolutely broken," unable to stand, sit, or walk.

    • The Lesson: Mindfulness isn't just a relaxation tool; it is a way to "re-assemble" a life that has completely shattered. It provides a way to be with a body that feels like it has failed you.

    2. The "Paratroopers" (Levels of Care)

    When describing the mental health system (CAMHS), Bill calls them the "paratroopers."

    • The Imagery: Paratroopers are elite forces dropped into the most severe, high-intensity conflict zones.

    • The Lesson: He argues that if you teach mindfulness in schools and to parents (preventative care), you don't need to call in the "paratroopers" for every case. Mindfulness serves as the "ground troops" that prevent the crisis from escalating to an emergency.

    3. "All in My Head" (The Ghost in the Machine)

    Bill describes the academic life as being "all in my head".

    • The Imagery: A person who exists only from the neck up, disconnected from the physical reality of their body.

    • The Lesson: He uses the Body Scan as the antidote-a way to "drop down" from the attic of the intellect into the "ground floor" of physical sensation.

    4. The "Common Sense" (The Invisible Script)

    Drawing on the philosopher Gramsci, Bill speaks about "Common Sense" as a metaphor for power.

    • The Imagery: A set of rules or a "norm" that is so pervasive we don't even see it as a choice; it’s just "the way things are."

    • The Lesson: Meditation helps students identify their own internal "Common Sense"-the habitual, self-critical thoughts they’ve accepted as "the truth" for years-and realise it is actually just a narrative that can be questioned.

    5. "Zombie" vs. "Tai Chi" (The Window Barrier)

    Bill shares a humorous story of practicing Tai Chi in the garden while his kids watched through the window, pretending to be zombies and saying, "I am a zombie, push down the button."

    • The Imagery: The glass window separating the "stillness" of his practice from the "chaos" of family life.

    • The Lesson: This serves as a metaphor for the interface between our practice and the world. We don't meditate to stay in a bubble; we meditate so we can eventually "push down the button" on our own autopilot (zombie-like) reactivity when we step back inside the house.

    6. The "Blue Light" (Mindfulness as Resilience)

    Working with the Scottish Ambulance Service, Bill frames mindfulness through the "Blue Light" metaphor.

    • The Imagery: The flashing lights of an emergency vehicle.

    • The Lesson: For first responders, mindfulness isn't about "peace"; it’s about resilience. It is the "internal shock absorber" that allows a person to witness trauma and then reset their nervous system so they don't carry the "Blue Light" emergency home with them.

    7. The "Walk and Talk" (The Parallel Journey)

    Bill’s shift to eco-therapy turned the traditional "room" therapy into a "walk."

    • The Imagery: Two people walking side-by-side in the forest rather than sitting face-to-face in a clinical room.

    • The Lesson: This metaphorises the non-directive nature of his work. The teacher/therapist isn't a "judge" behind a desk; they are a companion on a path. The forest (nature) becomes a third "teacher" in the room.

    8. "The Mirror of the Elements"

    Bill talks about meditating outside in "all weathers."

    • The Imagery: Sitting in the rain, wind, and sun of Scotland.

    • The Lesson: The external weather is a metaphor for our internal emotions. Just as we don't try to "stop" the rain, we learn through mindfulness not to "stop" our sadness or anger, but simply to sit with it until the weather changes.

  • Find out more about Bill’s work here.

On the Cushion with Karen Atkinson

As founder and CEO of MindfulnessUK, Karen leads its growth and development while pioneering innovative initiatives. Author of Compassionate Mindful Inquiry in Therapeutic Practice (2020), she previously chaired the British Association of Mindfulness-Based Approaches (BAMBA) and remains an active member.

In this episode I talk with Karen about how she came to mindfulness and how her background influences her facilitation of mindfulness.

  • MindfulnessUK is a BAMBA and EAMBA-affiliated training organisation, with courses regulated by the CPD Standards Office. Karen, an Honorary Lecturer at Queen’s University, Belfast, began her mindfulness journey in her 20’s as a way of managing the suffering experienced as a result of insidious trauma throughout her childhood. 

    A yoga teacher with the British Wheel of Yoga, she deepened her self-compassion practice during cancer recovery in 2013 and, when diagnosed with her second primary cancer in 2023, responded with deep self-kindness and equilibrium. These experiences empassion Karen to deliver trauma-informed teaching and training globally and she has become an acknowledged specialist in her field.

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  • 1. View Yourself as a "Facilitator," Not a "Teacher"

    Karen expresses unease with the traditional teacher-pupil hierarchy. She prefers the term facilitator, viewing the process as "we are all in this together." This creates an egalitarian space that fosters trust and safety.

    2. Prioritise "Embodied" Teaching Over Scripts

    Karen refuses to sell meditation scripts. She believes that the power of teaching comes from the facilitator’s own embodied experience. Students can sense the depth of a facilitator's personal practice, and this presence is what makes the teaching transformational.

    3. Integrate Compassion as a Core Foundation

    For Karen, mindfulness without compassion is out of balance. She argues that "dropping into the present moment" can be difficult if we don't have the tools of self-kindness to handle what we find there. Teachers should ensure that compassion practices are interwoven into every mindfulness curriculum.

    4. Meet People Where They Are (Differentiation)

    Don't superimpose a "blueprint" on everyone. Karen emphasises differentiation-adapting practices to the specific needs of the group. This is especially vital for "hard-to-reach" communities or those for whom traditional 40-minute meditations are not accessible.

    5. Use Shorter Practices for Accessibility

    Karen has been a pioneer in advocating for shorter practices. She notes that for many people-especially those in high-stress healthcare roles or those dealing with illness-shorter, "bite-sized" meditations are more effective and easier to integrate into a busy life than long, traditional sittings.

    6. Balance the "Curriculum" with "Intuition"

    While having a theme or learning objective for a session is important, a facilitator must be ready to "throw away the plan" if the room feels agitated or dull. Karen describes this as holding the curriculum in one hand and intuition and flexibilityin the other.

    7. Use Personal Practice for "Regulating the Group"

    When a group becomes distressed or agitated, the facilitator should bring themselves back to their own body and groundedness. By calming your own nervous system, you serve as a "baseline" that helps settle the collective energy of the room.

    8. Understand the "Nervous System" Context

    With her nursing background, Karen views mindfulness as a tool for nervous system regulation. Understanding how the body holds trauma or stress helps a teacher explain why mindfulness works on a "cellular level," making the practice feel more grounded in science and less "mystical."

    9. Ensure a Thorough Assessment Process

    To prevent mindfulness from "going horribly wrong," Karen insists on a robust assessment of participants before they begin a course. This helps identify "red flags" and ensures that the student is ready for the depth of the work, protecting both the student and the facilitator.

    10. Stay Committed to "Continuous Learning"

    Karen views the relationship between teaching and practicing as a "virtuous cycle." Even with decades of experience, she remains a student, continuing to be taught and trained. This keeps her teaching "fresh" and prevents it from becoming stagnant or repetitive.

  • 1. The "Homecoming"

    Karen uses this phrase to describe the immediate sensation of beginning a meditation or yoga practice.

    • The Imagery: Returning to a safe, familiar, and grounded house after being lost or out in the elements.

    • The Lesson: For someone with a "dysregulated nervous system," the body can feel like a foreign or hostile place. Mindfulness is the process of "coming home" to yourself, where you feel balanced, earthed, and connected.

    2. The "Soothing Balm"

    She describes the sensation of open awareness as a physical ointment.

    • The Imagery: A cooling, healing lotion applied to a burn or a wound.

    • The Lesson: When the nervous system is "on edge" or reactive, mindfulness acts as a balm that softens the internal tension and soothes the "heat" of stress and anxiety.

    3. "Drawing a Line" (The Choice Point)

    This is Karen’s primary metaphor for the power of the present moment.

    • The Imagery: Physically drawing a line in the sand or on a page.

    • The Lesson: One side of the line is the past-your ingrained patterns, dysfunctional upbringing, and habitual reactions. By dropping into the present, you "draw the line," creating a spaciousness that offers you the choice to respond differently rather than simply repeating the past.

    4. The "Cellular" Way of Being

    Karen notes that mindfulness is more than just a skill; it becomes "cellular in nature."

    • The Imagery: Something that isn't just a layer on top of the skin, but is part of the very DNA and atoms of the body.

    • The Lesson: With consistent practice, mindfulness stops being something you do and becomes part of who you are. It alters your "direction of travel" at the most fundamental level of your biology.

    5. The "Full Circle"

    She describes her journey from secular yoga to complex breathwork, into Buddhism, and back to simplified mindfulness as a circle.

    • The Imagery: Walking a long path only to return to where you started, but seeing it for the first time with total clarity.

    • The Lesson: You often start with simple practice, go through a "complex" phase of learning theory and lineage, and eventually return to simplicity-but this time, you are "informed and knowledgeable" rather than just doing it by rote.

    6. The "Imbued" Teacher

    Karen describes her relationship with Buddhist lineage as something that "imbues" her secular teaching.

    • The Imagery: Like a piece of cloth soaked in a dye or a scent; the original substance isn't visible, but its essence is present in every fiber.

    • The Lesson: Even when teaching in a strictly secular environment (like a hospital or a bank), a teacher’s deep personal study of lineage "imbues" their presence. Students can sense the "scent" of that depth even if the teacher never mentions it.

    7. The "Virtuous Cycle"

    This metaphor explains her motivation for continuing to work and train others.

    • The Imagery: A wheel that gains energy and "glow" as it turns, rather than wearing out.

    • The Lesson: Teaching and training feed back into the teacher's own practice. It is a "continuous learning" loop where the act of giving to others refills the teacher’s own "inner glow."

    8. The "Establishment" and "Redressing the Balance"

    Karen speaks about the early days of mindfulness training where compassion was often missing.

    • The Imagery: A set of scales that was tipped too far toward "clinical mindfulness" and away from "warm-hearted compassion."

    • The Lesson: Her mission was to redress the balance, ensuring that the "cold" clarity of mindfulness was paired with the "warm" support of compassion.

  • Find out more about Karen’s work here.

On the Cushion with Suryacitta

Suryacitta Smith has been practising meditation since 1989 and teaching since 1997. He is the author of five books on meditation and happiness.

After many years of practising and teaching mindfulness, he recognised that it did not fully address the root of human psychological suffering - the central concern of the Buddha’s teaching.

In this episode we explore Suryacitta’s background and influences, and his inspirational approach to teaching meditation.

  • Around a decade ago, Suryacitta was drawn to the understanding of non-duality, which he describes as the missing piece of the puzzle.

    This perspective now deeply informs his work, which is characterised by directness, simplicity, and a continual pointing beyond conceptual understanding.

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  • 1. Aim for Radical Simplicity

    Suryacitta emphasises that the most profound teachings are direct and simple. If a teaching is too complex, the mind tries to "figure it out," which creates more chatter. Teachers should point students to the absolute immediacy of their current experience-like the feeling of the chair-rather than searching for a "big experience."

    2. Move from "Mind" to "Presence"

    He suggests that "mindfulness" is a poor translation because it contains the word "mind." He prefers the words Presence or Being. As a teacher, help your students understand that they are looking for what is behind or prior to the thought (awareness), not the content of mind.

    3. Dismantle the "Storyteller"

    The core of Suryacitta's philosophy is that humans suffer because of the internal "narrator" or "storyteller."1

    • The Lesson: Help students see that they are not the voice in their head. The voice is just a "commentator" on reality, not reality itself. When the storyteller goes quiet, the joy of life (which is innate) is revealed.

    4. Use "Permission" as a Diagnostic Tool

    A key technique Suryacitta uses is asking: "Did that thought ask permission to arise?" * The Tip: By guiding students to realise that thoughts arise unbidden and unchosen, you help them break their identification with those thoughts. This allows them to lose interest in the "mental noise."

    5. Practice "Neutral Noticing"

    Teachers should encourage a neutral, non-judgmental observation of the mind. Adding a judgment like "I shouldn't be thinking this" is just another thought. Use the phrase "I’m having the thought that..." to create a healthy distance (diffusion) between the student and the content of their mind.

    6. Focus on "Losing" Rather than "Gaining"

    Most students come to meditation wanting to gain something (peace, clarity, focus). Suryacitta flips this: Meditation is about losing-losing the identification, losing the labels, and losing the self-centered storylines.

    7. Distinguish Between the "Screen" and the "Movie"

    Use the metaphor of the TV screen and the movie.

    • The Lesson: Students are usually enthralled by the "movie" (the drama of their thoughts). Your job is to point them back to the "screen" (Awareness/Presence). The screen is always there, even when the movie is tragic or frightening.

    8. Challenge the "Labels"

    Suryacitta describes labels (like "I am an anxious person") as post-it notes pinned to the self.

    • The Tip: Ban the use of self-limiting labels in your sessions. Encourage students to see themselves as a "person" experiencing a "thought of anxiety" rather than being the anxiety itself.

    9. Master the Use of Metaphor

    Suryacitta is a master of metaphors (the Ghost Train, the Jewel, the blind dog Banky).

    • The Tip: Create or use relatable metaphors to bypass the logical mind.

    10. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat

    He admits to being repetitive. Because the "Papancha" (mental momentum) is so strong, a teacher must be willing to repeat core truths in slightly different ways until they penetrate the student's identification with the mind.

  • 1. The "Ghost Train" (The Mental Ride)

    Suryacitta compares our psychological life to a theme park ride.

    • The Imagery: Entering a dark tunnel where skeletons and ghosts (fears, regrets, anxieties) jump out at you.

    • The Lesson: We treat these mental "jump scares" as reality, calling it "my life." He suggests that mindfulness allows us to see that we are just on a mental ride. Once you realise it's a ghost train, you can stay on the seat without being truly terrified, or even "get off the train" to see how the mechanics of the ride work.

    2. The "TV Screen vs. The Movie"

    This is his primary metaphor for understanding Awareness.

    • The Imagery: When you watch a movie, you are so enthralled by the drama that you "miss the screen."

    • The Lesson: The movie represents our thoughts and stories; the screen represents our Presence. No matter how violent or sad the "movie" in your head is, it never stains or damages the "screen." When the "TV" (the mind) turns off, the screen remains untouched and still.

    3. The "Post-it Note" Labels

    He describes self-limiting beliefs as physical stickers we place on ourselves.

    • The Imagery: Writing "Anxious," "Useless," or "Bad at Art" on a post-it and pinning it to your chest.

    • The Lesson: We eventually stop seeing the person and only see the labels. Mindfulness is the process of peeling off these labels to reveal the True Self underneath, which is none of those things.

    4. "Banky" (The Blind Dog)

    Suryacitta uses his blind Border Collie, Banky, as a living metaphor for a mind without "story."

    • The Imagery: A dog that lost its sight in a single day but still runs through fields with joy.

    • The Lesson: Banky doesn't have the word "blind," so in a sense, he isn't blind; he is just living. He doesn't tell himself a story about "I used to be able to see." He misses the ball 15 times, but the 16th time is fresh and new because he isn't carrying the story of his failure.

    5. The "Soap Bubble"

    He uses this to describe the lifespan of a thought.

    • The Imagery: A shimmering bubble floating in the air.

    • The Lesson: A thought has very little "mass." If you don't "feed" it energy or try to grab it, it will eventually just pop on its own. It is only when we identify with the "content" of the bubble that it feels all-encompassing.

    6. The "Language You Don't Understand"

    A thought-experiment metaphor for the internal monologue.

    • The Imagery: Imagine if your "chatter" suddenly switched into a language you don't speak, like German or Chinese.

    • The Lesson: You would realise the sounds are meaningless. This reveals that the suffering is in the belief in the words, not the words themselves. If the narrator is speaking a language you don't understand, the "threat" vanishes.

    7. "Dust in the Eyes"

    A classic Buddhist metaphor Suryacitta uses to explain why some people "get it" faster than others.

    • The Imagery: Walking through life with a thin layer of grit or dust obscuring your vision.

    • The Lesson: Some of us are more "mind-oriented" or "identified" with our thoughts. This "dust" makes it hard to see the simple truth that is already here. Practice is simply the act of clearing the dust.

  • Find out more about Suryacitta’s work here.

On the Cushion with Andy Wistreich

Andy Wistreich has been teaching Buddhist meditation and leading retreats around the world for the past 45 years, within the Tibetan tradition.

He has been encouraged to teach by his own teachers, who are mostly Tibetan lamas. In his mid-seventies he lives in Somerset with his wife Shan Tate, with whom he often co-leads courses and retreats. 

In this podcast episode we explore Andy’s background and influences, and his enduring commitment to teaching meditation.

  • Trained as a Further Education teacher, and having studied learning and teaching in a masters in education, Andy also trains Buddhist teachers within the Foundation for the Mahayana Tradition. His approach to this is dialogical, based on the understanding that the teacher's role is to facilitate learning, such as through meditation. 

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Shift from "Teacher" to "Facilitator"

    Andy advocates for a constructivist model of education. Instead of seeing yourself as the source of all knowledge (the transmission model), view your role as providing the information and guidance that allows students to construct their own awareness and understanding.

    2. Treat Practice as "Nutrition for the Mind"

    Andy describes his daily practice as the mainstay of his life. He suggests that teachers should present meditation not just as a tool for crisis management, but as essential daily nutrition that enables us to deal with the challenges of being alive and getting older.

    3. Beware the "Mask of the Teacher"

    One of Andy's most profound realisations was that he had been wearing a "mask" projected onto him by students. He warns teachers to be wary of their own egos and the "expert" persona. Stay authentic by remaining an "ordinary person" rather than becoming a creature of your professional role.

    4. Practice While You Lead

    Andy’s teacher, a Tibetan Lama, gave him the simple advice: "You practice yourself." * The Tip: When leading a meditation, you should be meditating as deeply as possible at the same time. This creates a genuine heart-to-heart communication that students can intuitively pick up on.

    5. Meditate from the "Heart Space," Not the Brain

    Andy recommends guiding students to focus their awareness within the rib cage-the heart space-rather than the brain. He believes this helps shift understanding from a purely intellectual level (the head) to an intuitive, felt level (the heart).

    6. Act as a "Catalyst," Not a Creator

    When students have amazing experiences, they often credit the teacher. Andy’s tip is to explicitly state: "I didn't give you this experience; I was just the catalyst." Remind students that the wisdom and the experience came from within them, reinforcing their own agency and "Buddha nature."

    7. Embrace Humility and Service

    For Andy, teaching is an act of service, akin to a house cleaner doing a necessary job for someone else. Humility means having deep respect for the student's potential. If it ever feels like the students are there to serve the teacher’s ego, the relationship has become "yucky" and corrupt.

    8. Use "Circles" to Draw Out Inner Wisdom

    Drawing on his drama teaching roots, Andy suggests using discussion circles where everyone is equal. He was "blown away" by the wisdom that emerged from people who had never studied Buddhism, proving that if you hold the space correctly, the group can often teach itself.

    9. Move Understanding from "Head to Heart"

    A teacher’s job is to help students filter intellectual concepts so they become intuitive. This is the difference between sharing words (the head) and sharing realisation (the heart). The deeper your own heart-centered practice, the more authentic your communication will be.

    10. Adapt the Pedagogy to the Culture

    While Andy respects his Tibetan lineage, he acknowledges the need to invert the hierarchy for Western students. Teachers should feel free to adapt traditional, rigid structures into freer, more conversational formats that suit the modern environment without losing the essence of the teaching.

  • 1. "Nutrition" (Mindfulness as Food)

    Andy describes his 45-year daily practice as the "mainstay" of his life using a biological lens.

    • The Imagery: Meditation as the "nutrition of the mind."

    • The Lesson: Practice is not just a medicine you take when you are sick (in crisis); it is the daily food required for the mind to remain healthy and resilient enough to handle "the challenges of being alive."

    2. The "Mask of the Teacher"

    This is Andy’s most personal metaphor, describing the psychological burden of leadership.

    • The Imagery: A physical mask that is both worn by the teacher and projected onto them by the students.

    • The Lesson: The role of "Expert" or "Teacher" can become a rigid persona that traps the individual. He realised he wanted to be free of the mask to become an "ordinary person" again, moving from a role-based identity to an authentic one.

    3. The "House Cleaner" (Service and Humility)

    To explain the lack of hierarchy in his teaching, Andy uses a domestic service metaphor.

    • The Imagery: Someone who comes to your house to clean the toilets or the floors.

    • The Lesson: A meditation teacher is a servant. They are doing a job for the student, providing a service that helps the student's internal "house" stay in order. It is an ordinary, humble task, not a reason for ego or a "throne."

    4. The "Catalyst"

    Andy uses this chemical metaphor to describe the teacher’s influence on a student's breakthrough.

    • The Imagery: A substance that triggers a chemical reaction without being the source of the materials.

    • The Lesson: When a student has a profound realization, the teacher is just the catalyst. The "chemicals" (the wisdom and potential) were already inside the student; the teacher simply provided the spark to set them in motion.

    5. "Head to Heart" (The Internal Descent)

    This describes the progression of understanding within a practitioner.

    • The Imagery: Information physically moving from the brain down into the "heart space" (the rib cage).

    • The Lesson: Intellectual knowledge is "Head" knowledge-it is filtered and logical. Realisation is "Heart" knowledge-it is intuitive and embodied. He guides students to meditate from the chest area to facilitate this descent.

    6. The "Bubble"

    Andy refers to the specialised world of long-term practitioners as a "bubble."

    • The Imagery: A thin, transparent sphere that keeps the group safe but also separate from the world.

    • The Lesson: While the Buddhist "bubble" offers depth, Andy found it "healthy" to step outside of it and engage with ordinary, secular life to maintain his authenticity and avoid becoming a "creature of his own ego."

    7. "Constructing" Knowledge

    Drawing on his Masters in Education, Andy views the mind as a construction site.

    • The Imagery: Building a structure (knowledge) from the ground up using provided materials.

    • The Lesson: He rejects the "banking" or "transmission" model (pouring water into a jar). Instead, he sees the student as the architect. The teacher provides the "information and guidance" (the bricks and blueprints), but the student must build the awareness within their own mind.

    8. The "Inner Experience" Circle

    • The Imagery: A circle of people sitting as equals, where the "center" belongs to the topic (like love or death) rather than a person.

    • The Lesson: The circle represents the non-hierarchical nature of wisdom. It demonstrates that wisdom is already "buried" in everyone (the Buddha Nature), and the group structure simply "removes the layers" to let it out.

  • Check out Andy’s YouTube channel here.

Inside Mindfulness with Mike Pratt

Mike Pratt is a Northeast England-based conservationist, author, and CEO of the Northumberland Wildlife Trust with nearly 40 years of environmental experience.

Through his platform, Living Mindfully Wild, he integrates his expertise in nature protection with over 20 years of teaching "energy movement" (Tai Chi and Chi Kung) to promote both personal wellbeing and ecological health, inspiring a deeper, more spiritual connection to the natural world by encouraging everyone to protect our fragile, precious wild environments.

  • Mike describes himself as a "naturalist writer" who is primally inspired by northern landscapes. He uses writing, drawing, and speaking to express the "magic and wonder" he finds in nature and to inspire others to protect the natural world. He has published several books and pamphlets, including:

    • Infinite Wonder (2023): A celebration of wild places and the healing power of nature.

    • My Wild Northumbria: An exploration of the habitats and history of the ancient region of Northumbria.

    • WILD: A collection of essays and prose poems focused on wildlife in east Cleveland and the North Yorkshire coast.

    • North Facing: Poems and prose detailing experiences in northern wildernesses from Yorkshire to Scandinavia and Iceland.

    • Aftermaths: His latest work, described as prose and poetry about the deep connection between humans and nature.

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Find "Space and Quietude"

    Fulfillment doesn't come from professional status or "busy-ness," but from seeking moments of quiet. Mike suggests even a "momentary nip outside" during the chaos of daily life to reconnect with something beyond yourself.

    2. Move from "Naming" to "Sensing"

    True nature connection isn't just about identifying species or "naming the parts." It is about acclimatisation - immersing yourself in the environment until you sense how every part of the ecology, including yourself, fits together.

    3. Adopt an "Animistic" Perspective

    Drawing from indigenous wisdom, Mike suggests viewing the world as entirely alive. When we see nature as an "animated entity" rather than an inanimate resource, we naturally shift from exploitation to a special, sacred relationship.

    4. Become a "Connector," Not Just a Conservator

    While conservation often focuses on protecting what is "out there," Mike’s mission is to help people "be more natural in their being." He views himself as a catalyst for reconnecting urbanised humans to their own biological evolution.

    5. Cultivate "Awe and Wonder" Over Negativity

    It is easy to be dragged down by the "negative street" of biodiversity loss. Mike teaches that focusing on the joy and wonder still present in the world is a more powerful motivator for change than grief or anger.

    6. Nature is "Home," Not a Destination

    Humans have evolved for 300,000 years to be linked to the natural environment. Mike reminds us that when we enter a woodland, our body chemistry changes because we aren't just visiting a park - we are "going home."

    7. Use Writing as "Cognitive Therapy"

    Mike uses poetry and prose to bring out thoughts and feelings he didn’t even know he had. He teaches that creative expression is a way to process the "internal landscape" alongside the external one.

    8. Practice "Reciprocity" Over Ownership

    We often talk about preserving nature for our future generations, which remains human-centered. Mike suggests a "two-way street" where we ask how we can nourish the thing that feeds us, moving from "custodianship" to a "reciprocal relationship."

    9. Apply Mindfulness to "Jagged" Lives

    Mindfulness isn’t just for the meditation cushion; it’s a framework for when life gets "sticky and painful." It doesn't stop the pain, but it provides a smoother way to work through the unpredictable challenges of the modern world.

    10. Listen to the "Mind of the Heart"

    Aligning with Taoist and Eastern philosophies, Mike suggests that the heart, not the head, is the true center of emotion and decision-making. In a world that uses the "head too much," returning to the heart allows for a deeper, non-dual connection to the "is-ness" of life.

  • 1. The "Overcoat" of Modernity

    Mike describes our urbanised, disconnected lifestyle as wearing "overcoats" or "layers of shells." He suggests that mindfulness and nature immersion are the process of "taking off the overcoat" to reveal our "natural selves." This metaphor implies that our connection to nature isn't something we need to build, but something that is already there, currently hidden by the weight of modern society.

    2. "Going Home"

    He repeatedly refers to entering a woodland or a wild space as "going home." This reframes nature from a "leisure destination" or a "resource" into a place of biological and spiritual belonging. It suggests that our bodies recognise the forest as their original, rightful habitat, triggering an immediate shift in chemistry and comfort.

    3. The "Two-Way Street" of Reciprocity

    Instead of the traditional "custodian" or "owner" model of conservation, Mike uses the metaphor of a "two-way street." This shifts the relationship from a one-sided human management of the land to a "proper relationship" where humans and nature nourish one another equally.

    4. The "Internal Landscape"

    When discussing his poetry, Mike speaks of the "internal landscape" being just as important as the external one. This metaphor suggests that our minds and emotions have their own topography - forests, rivers, and weather systems - that can be mapped and understood through the lens of the natural world.

    5. Nature as a "Beating Heart"

    While describing his time in a small cabin during a stressful period of family illness, he calls the cabin the "beating heart of this woodland." This metaphor transforms a simple structure into a living, rhythmic center of healing and observation, emphasising that even in the midst of human grief, we can find a pulse of life to sync with.

    6. "Waves" of Influence

    Mike acknowledges that while an individual can only influence themselves, he believes we "start waves out" from that center. This uses a water metaphor to describe how personal mindfulness and a "natural state of being" can ripple outward to influence politicians, communities, and the planet at large.

    7. Humans as "Gatherers of Experience"

    He suggests that humans have evolved to be "un-gatherers" (specifically gatherers of experience and samples of the world). He notes that we have "all the gear" for this, metaphorically describing our senses and biology as a specialised kit designed for deep engagement with the earth.

  • Check out Mike’s website here.

On the Cushion with The Little Company of Calm

Three friends, Joe Glancy, Liz McEvoy and Andrew Carton together make up The Little Company of Calm. Based in Sunderland, UK, they offer mindfulness courses, activities, and retreats for the public and organisations. As a community interest, not for profit company, they endeavour to provide affordable and high quality mindfulness provision for their local area.

In this episode, we dive into their individual journeys, the shared philosophy that binds their teaching, and their big-picture vision for a more mindful society.

  • The discussion highlights the importance of accessibility, community engagement, and the transformative power of mindfulness in addressing mental health challenges. The team shares insights on their influences, teaching methodologies, and the significance of authenticity in their practice, ultimately emphasising the need for mindfulness to become a mainstream aspect of daily life.

    Meet the Team

    Liz McEvoy: Based in Sunderland, Liz has been a dedicated Mindfulness Teacher for over eight years. Her journey began in the early 90s while traveling the world; witnessing cultures where meditation was a seamless part of daily life left a lasting impression. Later, through her work in secondary education and deprived communities, she saw first-hand how these practices could anchor people through life’s inevitable ups and downs. Today, she is particularly focused on Mindful Self-Compassion, driven by a mission to make mindfulness accessible to everyone, regardless of their background or postcode.

    Joe Glancy: Joe’s formal practice spans 15 years, with 12 years of experience as a teacher. His "entry point" was the Peace in a Frantic World program, which he initially applied to his role as a Workforce Development Coach in local government. For Joe, mindfulness was transformative; it helped him realise his struggles weren't unique, provided tools to navigate social anxiety, and revealed an "inner well of peace" that is always accessible. Trained through Bangor University and the Mindfulness Network, Joe is a BAMBA-qualified teacher who views the evolution of The Little Company of Calm as a deepening practice in itself.

    Andrew Carton: Andrew’s interest in mindfulness was similarly sparked by the Finding Peace in a Frantic World philosophy, leading him to complete the Foundation course in Mindfulness at Oxford University. He teaches a wide range of programs, from Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT) to introductory tasters. Andrew brings a unique physical dimension to the group through his passion for Mindful Movement, specifically the practice of Chi Kung. He is committed to the UK good practice guidelines and works alongside Liz and Joe to help the local community improve their health and well-being through intentional living.

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Accessibility is the Primary Mission

    The trio is driven by the belief that mindfulness should not be an "elite" or "luxury" pursuit.

    Economic Inclusivity: They use "Pay-As-You-Can" models to ensure financial status isn't a barrier.

    Cultural Relevance: They actively take mindfulness out of "zen" studios and into the community (Salvation Army, Carer Centers, Social Housing).

    The "Workplace Transition": Joe and Liz’s backgrounds in local government and education allow them to "translate" complex concepts into language that resonates with busy, working-class populations.

    2. Pedagogical Style: Experiential & Embodied

    Their teaching isn't just about theory; it’s about the felt experience.

    "Stand the Troops Down": They use powerful metaphors to explain neuroscience. For example, describing the "no action needed" state as giving your nervous system permission to "stand down its troops."

    The Power of Stillness: Liz emphasises that for people who "can't sit still," learning that stillness is allowed and not "self-indulgent" is a radical, life-changing shift.

    Integrated Movement: Andrew champions Chi Kung as a "preventative medicine" and an accessible entry point for those with limited mobility or hyperactive minds.

    3. The "Translation" of Neuroscience

    They use science not to complicate, but to validate the practice:

    The "Under the Bonnet" Metaphor: You don’t need to be a mechanic to drive a car, but understanding the engine helps. They use neuroscience to explain why the brain predicts the next moment and how mindfulness interrupts that loop.

    Evidence-Based Foundations: They lean on established curricula like Finding Peace in a Frantic World and Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT).

    4. Nature as a Co-Teacher

    They don't just teach about calm; they go where calm exists.

    "Double Power": They combine mindfulness with nature (flora, fauna, and birdwatching) to create a sensory-rich environment that aids presence.

    Sensory Grounding: Liz’s opening joy about the "warmth of the tea cup" reflects their teaching style: finding mindfulness in the immediate, physical senses.

    From the final "quick-fire" round, their advice to new teachers can be summarised as:

    Embrace Fallibility: Don’t try to be a "perfectly serene" guru. Modeling how you handle your own mistakes is more helpful to students than pretending to be flawless.

    Less is More: Silence is a teacher. Avoid over-guiding; give students the space to simply be.

    The Long Game: Mindfulness teaching is a lifelong personal practice first. You must embody the principles before you can guide others through them.

  • The founders of The Little Company of Calm use vivid, relatable metaphors to demystify mindfulness. They take the practice away from abstract spirituality and ground it in everyday logic.

    1. Standing the Troops Down

    The Context: Explaining the phrase "No action needed right now."

    The Meaning: Joe uses this to describe the physiological shift from a state of "fight or flight" (reactivity) to a state of rest. When the mind realises there is no immediate threat or task, it sends a signal to the body’s nervous system to "stand the troops down" - releasing the tension and preparation for battle that we often carry unconsciously.

    2. Looking Under the Bonnet

    The Context: Explaining the role of neuroscience in mindfulness.

    The Meaning: Andrew and Liz compare practicing mindfulness to driving a car. You don’t need to be a mechanic to drive, but understanding what is happening "under the bonnet" (the brain’s wiring and stress responses) gives you a deeper appreciation for how the vehicle works and helps you manage it better when things go wrong.

    3. The Anchor

    The Context: Describing Andrew’s presence within the team.

    The Meaning: Liz describes Andrew as the "Anchor." In the often-turbulent sea of running a community interest company and teaching deep emotional subjects, his steadiness provides a fixed point that prevents the group from drifting or becoming overwhelmed by "great ideas" and risks.

    4. Streams Leading to the Ocean

    The Context: Reflecting on their diverse past careers (teaching, coaching, translating).

    The Meaning: Joe and Andrew describe their previous professional lives as different "streams." While those jobs seemed separate at the time, they all eventually flowed into the same "ocean" - their current roles as mindfulness teachers. It suggests that no experience is wasted; everything converges to create their current expertise.

    5. Deep as the Ocean

    The Context: Joe’s first experience with the Frantic World program.

    The Meaning: He uses this to describe the layers of the mind. While the surface might be choppy with thoughts and sounds, mindfulness allows you to drop below the surface to a place of "stability and clarity." It implies that peace isn't something you create, but something that is "always there" at the bottom of the ocean, beneath the waves.

    6. A Workout for the Mind

    The Context: Their vision for the future of society.

    The Meaning: They compare mindfulness to going to the gym. Just as we accept that the body needs regular physical exercise to stay healthy and prevent injury, they view mindfulness as a "mental workout" that should be a mainstream, preventative habit for everyone.

    7. Wintering

    The Context: Liz’s favorite reading/concept.

    The Meaning: Used as a metaphor for difficult periods in life or bouts of depression. Rather than fighting the "cold" or the "darkness" of a hard time, "wintering" suggests an appreciation for the season you are in - accepting that life has cycles of dormancy and retreat before growth can happen again.

    8. The Guest House

    The Context: Referring to the famous Rumi poem.

    The Meaning: The mind is a guest house, and emotions (even the "spiteful" or "difficult" ones) are unexpected visitors. The teaching is to "entertain them all" rather than slamming the door on them. If you treat an emotion as a temporary guest, you don't have to become the emotion itself.

  • Find out more about The Little Company of Calm here.

Inside Mindfulness with Nicholas Buxton

Nicholas Buxton is an Anglican priest and the Chief Executive of the Society of the Sacred Mission, at St Antony’s Priory, a Christian spirituality centre in Durham, UK.

In this episode, Nicholas shares his journey as a writer and Anglican priest, exploring the significance of contemplative practices in his life. He discusses the intersection of Buddhism and Christianity, the importance of adapting teachings for diverse audiences, and the cultural reflections on spirituality in contemporary society.

  • Nicholas was previously a vicar of a parish in Newcastle city Centre, where he developed ‘Just Meditation – a simple, accessible and inclusive approach to the learning and practice of meditation – and founded the Newcastle Meditation Centre (which was sadly forced to close in 2020).

    He has a PhD in Buddhist philosophy and is the author of a number of books about meditation and Christian spirituality, including Tantalus and the Pelican: exploring monastic spirituality today (2009), The Wilderness Within: meditation and modern life (2014), and Just Meditation: everyday meditation for everyone (2020).

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Writing as a spiritual and creative discipline

    • Writing is both deeply satisfying and deeply difficult - sometimes flowing naturally, sometimes feeling like “wrestling with mud.”

    • His goal is to write for a wide audience, not just academics - making deep ideas accessible and useful in everyday life.

    • Writing is part of his vocation, not just intellectual work - it’s a way of serving others.

    Key idea: Clarity and accessibility are moral and spiritual choices, not just stylistic ones.

    2. Spirituality emerged from personal crisis and existential questioning

    • In his early 20s, Nicholas struggled with alcohol, drugs, and lack of direction.

    • This crisis prompted a search for meaning through travel, meditation, and spiritual traditions.

    • Intensive meditation practice in India and New Zealand became a turning point that transformed his life.

    Key insight: Spiritual practice often begins not from comfort, but from suffering and disillusionment.

    3. Meditation practice itself stayed simple - but its meaning evolved

    His core technique hasn’t changed in 30 years:

    • Sitting quietly

    • Watching the breath

    • Repeating a prayer phrase or mantra

    What changed:

    • Initially practiced within a Buddhist framework

    • Now practiced within a Christian contemplative framework

    Important distinction:

    • Technique: same

    • Meaning and purpose: transformed

    He now describes meditation as “Being present to the presence of God.”

    4. Meditation is more than stress relief - it raises deeper existential questions

    Nicholas emphasises a critical distinction:

    Surface level:

    • Stress reduction

    • Anxiety management

    • Wellbeing

    Deeper level:

    • Understanding the human condition

    • Understanding suffering

    • Exploring ultimate meaning and reality

    His key argument: Without a deeper framework, meditation risks becoming just a coping tool.

    5. Buddhism and Christianity share deep structural similarities

    He argues they are more alike than people assume.

    Both identify the same core problem:

    Buddhism: Dukkha (unsatisfactoriness)

    Christianity: Fall / sin

    Caused by attachment and disordered desire.

    Both aim at transformation and liberation.

    This insight allowed him to embrace Christianity without rejecting Buddhism.

    6. A powerful turning point: an unexpected Christian experience in India.

    Despite identifying as atheist, he attended a small Easter service in India.

    He experienced:

    • A profound sense of joy

    • Relief

    • Homecoming

    He described it as:

    “A weight lifting … a coming home.”

    This became a foundation for his eventual path into Christian priesthood.

    7. Spirituality is not private - it must express itself in the world.

    He strongly rejects the idea that spirituality is purely personal.

    He believes authentic spirituality must:

    • Change behaviour

    • Change relationships

    • Express itself in service

    • Become a vocation

    This led him to become a priest.

    8. Meditation is a doorway, not the destination.

    His “Just Meditation” approach emphasises:

    • Simple

    • Inclusive

    • Accessible practice

    But he stresses:

    Meditation is the beginning, not the end.

    The real questions come after:

    • What is reality?

    • What is suffering?

    • What is the purpose of life?

    • Who are we?

    9. Spiritual traditions provide necessary depth and direction.

    Nicholas argues that traditions matter because they provide:

    • Context

    • Meaning

    • Ethical framework

    • Understanding of human nature

    Without this, meditation can become:

    • Shallow

    • Therapeutic only

    • Existentially incomplete

    10. His life illustrates a core paradox: finding yourself requires losing your old identity.

    He moved through:

    • Addiction

    • Atheism

    • Buddhism

    • Christianity

    And eventually discovered:

    “I am where I’m meant to be. I am who I’m meant to be.”

  • 1. Writing as “wrestling with a lump of material”

    Writing can feel like “wrestling with a mass of words… wading through mud.”

    Meaning:

    • Creative and spiritual work is often difficult and resistant.

    • Insight emerges through effort, not just inspiration.

    • Growth is an embodied struggle, not purely intellectual.

    2. Meditation as a “door”

    Just meditation is “the door… what happens on the other side is the real question.”

    Meaning:

    • Meditation is not the destination - it’s the entry point.

    • It opens into deeper existential and spiritual exploration.

    • Stress reduction is just the threshold.

    3. Spiritual transformation as “coming home”

    The Easter experience felt like “coming home.”

    Meaning:

    • Spiritual awakening isn’t becoming something new.

    • It’s rediscovering something fundamental and already present.

    • It carries a feeling of recognition, not acquisition.

    4. Meditation as “training the body to train the mind”

    Meaning:

    • Mind and body are inseparable.

    • Stillness of mind requires preparation.

    • Spiritual practice is physical, not just mental.

    5. Spiritual weight being “lifted”

    Meaning:

    • Spiritual conflict creates psychological burden.

    • Insight brings lightness and relief.

    • Awakening is experienced somatically.

    6. Meditation as “being present to the presence”

    Meditation is “being present to the presence of God.”

    Meaning:

    • Meditation isn’t about doing, but being.

    • Presence itself becomes the object.

    • Awareness meets reality directly.

    7. Spirituality as something that must “cash out in the world”.

    Meaning:

    • Spiritual practice must translate into behaviour.

    • Insight must become action.

    • Otherwise it’s incomplete.

    8. Meditation as a “sticking plaster” (if used only for stress)

    Meaning:

    • Meditation can temporarily relieve symptoms.

    • But may not address root causes.

    • Without deeper inquiry, it remains superficial.

    9. His life path as a “journey”

    Meaning:

    • Spiritual development unfolds over time.

    • It isn’t linear or planned.

    • It includes wrong turns and unexpected destinations.

  • Find out more about Nicholas:

On the Cushion with Margaret Fletcher

Margaret Fletcher has a great love and concern for our shared Earth. Margaret is the originator of the MBSR & EcoAwareness Project, bringing MBI teachers together to invite life on Earth into the span of embodied practice and into our teaching, all in love, care and service for our precious planet. 

In this podcast episode we explore Margaret’s background and influences related to her work as a mindfulness teacher and teacher educator, and her inspiring vision for the field.

  • Margaret trained and was certified to teach MBSR through the Center for Mindfulness at UMass Medical School, where she also served as an MBSR Teacher and Senior MBSR Teacher Trainer. She trained with and is certified by senior trainers at Bangor and Oxford Universities in assessing MBSR teacher competency using the MBI-TAC tool, which she uses in mentoring mindfulness teachers. In 2019 Margaret co-founded East Coast Mindfulness with Rebecca Eldridge; Margaret continues to teach and train MBSR teachers through East Coast Mindfulness. Margaret holds a Master’s degree in Mindfulness Studies from Lesley University, and brings over two decades of experience in teaching meditation and mindfulness in corporate, small business, non-profit, church and community settings. As a member of the 2022-2023 Eco-Advisory Group with the BESS Family Foundation, she has found great collegiality, support and inspiration to offer contemplative practices as healing and wellness for the interconnected web of life on Earth.

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Teach from embodiment, not performance

    One of the strongest themes throughout the conversation is that mindfulness teaching is not about adopting a “mindful persona.”

    Margaret says: “I refuse to adopt a mindful personality.” This is a profound pedagogical point. The invitation is:

    • teach from authenticity rather than role-playing

    • bring your actual humanity into the room

    • use your own vernacular, humour, gestures, energy, and style

    • embody the practice rather than imitate an idealised teacher identity

    Teaching implication

    Students respond most deeply to congruence, not perfection.

    2. Mindfulness teaching Is relational transmission

    Margaret repeatedly points toward moments in teaching that go beyond technique or curriculum.

    She describes moments where:

    • the room becomes deeply attuned

    • everyone feels “on the edge of realisation”

    • something alive and unpredictable emerges

    • insight is transmitted non-conceptually

    This aligns with the idea that:

    good mindfulness teaching is not simply delivering content - it is creating conditions for shared awakening and relational depth.

    Teaching implication

    The most transformative moments often cannot be scripted.

    Teachers need:

    • presence

    • sensitivity

    • courage

    • attunement

    • trust in emergence

    3. Competency frameworks matter but they are not the whole story

    Her reflections on the MBI:TAC are nuanced and valuable. Initially she found it intimidating: “too accurate a mirror”. Later she came to deeply respect it.

    The key insight:

    • competencies are useful developmental scaffolding

    • they help teachers refine skill

    • they create shared language and standards

    But:

    • frameworks cannot fully capture aliveness, transmission, authenticity, or depth of presence

    Teaching implication

    Use competency frameworks as:

    • developmental mirrors

    • reflective tools

    • supports for growth

    Not as mechanistic scorecards.

    4. Keep returning to beginner’s mind

    One of the most practical teacher-training insights: “I’m still trainable.”

    Margaret repeatedly emphasises:

    • humility

    • openness

    • willingness to be transformed

    • continual learning

    She sees the best teacher trainees as those willing to:

    • return to student mind

    • let go of expertise identity

    • remain vulnerable to learning

    Teaching implication

    The moment teachers stop learning, their teaching narrows.

    5. Teaching requires ethical and existential clarity

    Margaret speaks often about “ethos.” She argues mindfulness teaching is never value-neutral.

    Core values include:

    • care

    • compassion

    • non-harming

    • relationality

    • responsibility

    • dignity

    • authenticity

    Importantly, she frames mindfulness not merely as stress reduction, but as:

    • transformation

    • awakening

    • relational intelligence

    • ecological belonging

    Teaching implication

    Teachers should continually reflect:

    • What is my ethos?

    • What vision of humanity is embedded in my teaching?

    • What am I implicitly encouraging?

    6. Stress reduction may be the doorway but not the destination

    A very important pedagogical insight. She says people often arrive for stress reduction:

    • and that is legitimate

    • healing matters

    But she warns against limiting mindfulness to symptom management. Mindfulness can also invite:

    • deeper realisation

    • ethical transformation

    • connection

    • existential inquiry

    • ecological awareness

    Teaching implication

    Meet students where they are but do not underestimate the depth available.

    7. Invite the earth into the classroom

    Perhaps the most original contribution in the episode.

    Margaret challenges teachers:

    “Can you invite the earth into your classroom?”

    Not as:

    • an add-on

    • a token loving-kindness phrase

    • a scripted ecological reference

    But as:

    • a lived relational reality

    • an embodied awareness of interconnectedness

    Examples she gives:

    • breathing as reciprocal exchange with nature

    • relational practice with the natural world

    • outdoor mindfulness

    • recognising humans as beings within ecosystems

    Teaching implication

    Mindfulness teaching may need to evolve: from individual wellbeing →
    toward ecological consciousness and relational belonging.

    8. Teach what is alive for you

    Margaret’s path evolved organically:

    • business

    • meditation

    • MBSR

    • teacher training

    • ecological awareness

    She did not force a fixed identity.

    Instead, she followed:

    • energy

    • resonance

    • what felt alive

    • what kept calling her

    Teaching implication

    Powerful teaching often emerges when teachers:

    • stop copying others

    • trust their own unfolding

    • allow their practice to evolve naturally

    9. Real teaching involves creative risk

    The Martha Graham quote she shares becomes almost a manifesto for teaching:

    “Keep the channel open.” This links strongly to:

    • authenticity

    • creativity

    • courage

    • non-comparison

    Teaching implication

    Teaching mindfulness is not merely reproducing curriculum. It is:

    • an artistic act

    • a relational act

    • a creative act

    • a living act

    10. Joyful responsibility

    One of the most memorable phrases in the episode.

    Margaret reframes responsibility not as burden, but as:

    “joyful responsibility.”

    This is especially important in:

    • ecological work

    • social healing

    • mindfulness teaching

    • leadership

    Teaching implication

    Teachers who embody grounded hope and meaningful responsibility may be more transformative than those teaching from fear or urgency alone.

    Summary

    Margaret presents mindfulness teaching not as the performance of calm expertise, but as an embodied, relational, ethically alive practice rooted in authenticity, continual learning, and ecological belonging.

  • .1. The Blowtorch

    One of the strongest metaphors in the episode. Margaret describes awakening and teaching energy as:

    “a blowtorch”

    She then expands it:

    • it can be wide and messy

    • or refined and precise

    • practice is learning how to focus and deploy that energy skilfully

    What it symbolises

    • spiritual intensity

    • transformative energy

    • responsibility

    • disciplined expression

    • refinement of insight

    Teaching insight

    Mindfulness is not passive relaxation - it can be powerful, disruptive, catalytic energy that must be integrated wisely.

    2. “Hair on Fire”

    She repeatedly describes periods of practice and training as: “hair on fire”

    What it symbolises

    • urgency

    • existential longing

    • deep motivation

    • intense commitment

    • spiritual hunger

    Teaching insight

    Transformative learning often arises from deep existential need rather than casual curiosity.

    3. The Teacher on the Mountain

    Referring to her teacher Norman Scrimshaw: “Everybody should have their teacher on a mountain.”

    What it symbolises

    • wisdom

    • perspective

    • retreat from conventional culture

    • archetypal guidance

    • pilgrimage

    Teaching insight

    Teachers are not simply instructors - they can function as symbolic anchors of depth and orientation.

    4. The Stopcock on the Blowtorch

    She says Norman: “opened up the stopcock on the blowtorch.”

    What it symbolises

    • releasing dormant potential

    • opening channels of awareness

    • activating latent energy

    Teaching insight

    Great teachers often unlock something already present in the student.

    5. “Universal Solvent”

    Mindfulness/wakefulness is described as: “the universal solvent.”

    What it symbolises

    • dissolving rigid identities

    • softening conditioning

    • loosening fragmentation

    • increasing interconnectedness

    Teaching insight

    Mindfulness is portrayed as a force that breaks down separateness and rigidity.

    6. “Invite the Earth Into the Classroom”

    Perhaps the central ecological metaphor. “Can you invite the earth into your classroom?”

    What it symbolises

    • dissolving the human/nature divide

    • expanding mindfulness beyond individual psychology

    • ecological relationality

    Teaching insight

    Mindfulness teaching should not remain trapped inside human-centred frameworks.

    7. The Edge of Realisation

    She describes transformative group moments as: “everyone’s awareness on the edge of realisation.”

    What it symbolises

    • liminality

    • emergence

    • threshold consciousness

    • collective attunement

    Teaching insight

    Deep teaching often happens at thresholds rather than through explanation.

    8. Dancing to the Edge of Madness

    Borrowed from Donald McCown’s description of flamenco dancers.

    What it symbolises

    • ecstatic aliveness

    • surrender

    • intensity

    • creative edge states

    • transformative presence

    Teaching insight

    Powerful teaching contains vitality and unpredictability, not sterile control.

    9. The Mirror (MBI:TAC)

    She describes the competency framework as: “too accurate a mirror.”

    What it symbolises

    • self-confrontation

    • vulnerability

    • developmental honesty

    Teaching insight

    Reflective frameworks can provoke discomfort because they reveal blind spots clearly.

    10. Beginner’s Mind as Being “Trainable”

    She says: “I’m still trainable.”

    What it symbolises

    • humility

    • openness

    • flexibility

    • lifelong learning

    Teaching insight

    The healthiest teachers remain students.

    11. “The Earth Knocking on My Door”

    She says: “the earth… finally said, now me.”

    What it symbolises

    • ecological awakening

    • vocation

    • calling

    • the more-than-human world demanding attention

    Teaching insight

    Ecological awareness becomes not an intellectual interest, but a summons.

    12. Human Architectures and Pathways

    She critiques being trapped inside:

    “human architectures, human pathways.”

    What it symbolises

    • cultural conditioning

    • social systems

    • anthropocentrism

    • disconnection from nature

    Teaching insight

    Modern life narrows perception and relational awareness.

    13. Nature’s Message

    One of the most powerful metaphors in the episode:

    “If you choose to save me, I will support you. If you choose to ruin me, I will support you.”

    What it symbolises

    • nature as amplifying force

    • ecological reciprocity

    • systemic consequence

    • neutrality of natural processes

    Teaching insight

    Nature responds to human action impartially; we live inside feedback loops.

    14. “A Country That Doesn’t Have a Name”

    She says she lives psychologically/spiritually in:

    “a country that doesn’t have a name.”

    What it symbolises

    • communities of sanity

    • shared ethical consciousness

    • collective awakening

    • invisible networks of care and responsibility

    Teaching insight

    Transformation often occurs through communities that transcend conventional identities.

    15. “Drink That Up”

    She repeatedly uses nourishment metaphors:

    • “drink that up”

    • “feed that”

    • “nourish that”

    What it symbolises

    • sustaining hope

    • emotional nutrition

    • cultivating healthy systems

    Teaching insight

    Attention functions like nourishment - what we feed grows.

    16. “The Kingdom Is Alive and Well”

    Referring to communities of joyful responsibility.

    What it symbolises

    • an alternative moral ecosystem

    • hidden resilience

    • collective sanity

    Teaching insight

    Healthy culture already exists in pockets and networks, even amidst crisis.

    17. “Keep the Channel Open”

    From the Martha Graham quote.

    What it symbolises

    • creativity

    • authenticity

    • transmission

    • vocation

    • non-blockage

    Teaching insight

    Teaching is less about manufacturing wisdom and more about allowing expression to move through us clearly.

    18. “Blessed Unrest”

    Another powerful phrase from Martha Graham.

    What it symbolises

    • sacred dissatisfaction

    • evolutionary tension

    • creative longing

    Teaching insight

    Growth often requires remaining dynamically unfinished.

  • Find out more about Margaret Fletcher here.

On the Cushion with Ted Meissner

Ted Meissner has been a meditator since the early 90’s, is a UMass Center for Mindfulness Certified MBSR Teacher, and is the host of the podcast Present Moment: Mindfulness Practice and Science and the new video podcast Mindfulness Voyage. He has presented about mindfulness to various groups including Apple, UnitedHealth, Optum, the University of Massachusetts Medical School, the National Black Nurses Association, and others.

In this fascinating episode we explore Ted’s diverse and extensive experience as a mindfulness scholar, practitioner and teacher.

  • Ted has been published in Perspectives on Psychological Science, Mindful, and The International Journal of Whole Person Care, and is a peer reviewer of articles for the science journal Mindfulness. He supervises mindfulness teachers internationally with the Institute for Mindfulness-Based Approaches based in Germany, serves as Board Chair for The Mindfulness Network in the U.K., has held master classes for the Oxford Mindfulness Foundation, and teaches various mindfulness and burnout courses live online.

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Teaching Begins with Listening, Not Delivering

    One of Ted’s strongest themes is that teaching is fundamentally relational rather than performative. He repeatedly returns to the importance of deeply listening to participants rather than imposing predetermined ideas.

    “I don’t want you to teach how I teach. I want you to teach how you’re going to teach.”

    Teaching implications:

    • Prioritise inquiry over instruction.

    • Ask open experiential questions:

      • “What is this like for you?”

      • “What are you noticing right now?”

    • Avoid assuming participants’ experiences.

    • Let learners discover meaning rather than “receiving” it.

    This aligns strongly with:

    • constructivist pedagogy

    • person-centred learning

    • experiential education

    • dialogical teaching

    2. The Learner Is the Curriculum

    Ted echoes the spirit of Jon Kabat-Zinn when describing mindfulness teaching.

    Participants often arrive believing they know why they are there, but deeper motivations emerge gradually through practice and reflection.

    Key insight:

    The curriculum unfolds through the learner’s unfolding awareness.

    Educational application:

    • Build space for emergence.

    • Allow goals to evolve.

    • Revisit motivations over time.

    • Trust reflective discovery processes.

    This is especially powerful for:

    • reflective practice teaching

    • supervision

    • coaching

    • transformational education

    3. Curiosity Is More Important Than Performance

    Ted continually redirects mindfulness away from “doing meditation correctly” toward cultivating curiosity.

    He critiques overly narrow performance metrics:

    “I don’t really care if you can count to 10 while meditating on your breath.”

    Core educational shift:

    From:

    • achievement

    • compliance

    • technique mastery

    Toward:

    • awareness

    • discernment

    • responsiveness

    • self-understanding

    Teaching implication:

    The aim is not producing “good meditators” but more aware human beings.

    4. Authentic Presence Teaches More Than Technique

    Ted emphasises modeling presence as central to teaching.

    “Hopefully as genuine as I can be.”

    Important idea:

    Who the teacher is matters as much as what the teacher says.

    Implications for educators:

    • Embodiment matters.

    • Congruence matters.

    • Relational safety matters.

    • Nervous systems co-regulate.

    This reflects:

    • implicit learning theory

    • relational pedagogy

    • trauma-sensitive education

    • contemplative pedagogy

    5. Trauma-Sensitive Teaching Should Be Universal

    A major insight from the conversation is that trauma-sensitive approaches are not only for traumatised populations.

    “Everyone runs into difficulties now and then.”

    Ted describes a sequence:

    1. Notice how you are

    2. Learn to care for yourself

    3. Then engage practice

    Teaching implications:

    • Normalise pausing.

    • Offer choice.

    • Avoid coercive practices.

    • Teach self-regulation before deeper inquiry.

    • Safeguarding is pedagogical, not optional.

    This is especially relevant in:

    • healthcare education

    • burnout prevention

    • workplace mindfulness

    • student wellbeing

    6. Mindfulness Is Not Just About Calm

    Ted strongly critiques the reduction of mindfulness into “stress reduction” or “calmness training.”

    Instead, mindfulness develops:

    • discernment

    • honesty

    • capacity to face difficulty

    • non-avoidance

    • ethical responsiveness

    “Not bypassing, but directly encountering what’s here.”

    Educational importance:

    Mindfulness teaching should not become emotional anaesthesia or organisational sedation.

    This has huge implications for:

    • healthcare systems

    • workplace wellbeing programs

    • leadership education

    7. Burnout Is Systemic, Not Merely Individual

    A particularly important teaching insight is Ted’s distinction between:

    • treating symptoms
      vs

    • changing causes and conditions

    He critiques:

    • superficial wellness interventions

    • mindfulness used to tolerate toxic systems

    Instead:

    Mindfulness should support awareness that enables systemic change.

    Key conditions he identified for healthy work:

    1. Challenging but not overwhelming work

    2. Connection with others

    3. Seeing meaningful impact

    This is highly relevant to:

    • medical education

    • NHS workforce wellbeing

    • leadership development

    • organisational culture design

    8. Small Transformations Matter

    Ted offers a nuanced challenge to outcome-driven educational culture.

    Even small shifts may be life-changing.

    “A two to five percent change can be incredibly transformative.”

    Teaching implications:

    • Avoid fetishising dramatic transformation.

    • Respect subtle shifts.

    • Value incremental development.

    • Human growth is nonlinear.

    This is deeply important in:

    • reflective learning

    • psychotherapy education

    • mindfulness teaching

    • coaching and mentoring

    9. Collaboration Over Competition

    One of the strongest ethical themes is Ted’s call for collaboration within the mindfulness field.

    He critiques:

    • organisational competition

    • self-promotion culture

    • gatekeeping

    • exclusivity

    Instead:

    He advocates:

    • sharing others’ work

    • mutual support

    • long-term collaboration

    • community-building

    Teaching implication:

    Educational ecosystems flourish through generosity, not territoriality.

    This links beautifully to:

    • communities of practice

    • collective intelligence

    • sangha/community principles

    10. Teachers Must Remain Learners

    Ted repeatedly positions himself as a perpetual student.

    “All my teachers.”

    Key idea:

    Teaching is reciprocal.

    Participants educate the teacher through:

    • their lived experience

    • perspectives

    • struggles

    • insights

    Educational implication:

    Humility is not decorative - it is pedagogically essential.

  • 1. “Brightly Colored Threads in a Tapestry”

    “There are a few different very brightly colored threads in that tapestry.”

    Meaning

    Ted describes his work not as a single identity but as interwoven strands:

    • teaching

    • mentoring

    • research

    • podcasting

    • organisational work

    • field-building

    Deeper implication

    A meaningful professional life is not linear or singular - it is woven.

    Teaching application

    Useful for:

    • professional identity formation

    • reflective practice

    • career development

    • integrative learning

    Possible workshop question

    “What are the brightly coloured threads in your own professional tapestry?”

    2. “Taproot”

    “At the taproot of all this…”

    Meaning

    The “taproot” symbolises the deepest nourishing source beneath visible activities.

    For Ted:

    • integrity

    • supporting the field

    • helping people

    Deeper implication

    Surface actions emerge from deeper values.

    Teaching application

    Excellent metaphor for:

    • values clarification

    • vocation

    • contemplative leadership

    • systems thinking

    3. “The Hardest 10 Minutes of My Life”

    Meaning

    His first silent meditation becomes a metaphor for confronting the untamed mind.

    Deeper implication

    Silence reveals hidden turbulence.

    Teaching application

    Useful for normalising:

    • beginner discomfort

    • cognitive overload

    • emotional avoidance

    • resistance to introspection

    4. “Showing Up With Care”

    “Showing up with care.”

    Probably the central metaphorical phrase in the entire interview.

    Layers within the metaphor

    “Showing up”:

    • presence

    • embodiment

    • participation

    • relational availability

    “With care”:

    • gentleness

    • ethical attention

    • compassion

    • delicacy

    Why it matters

    It reframes mindfulness away from technique and toward relational being.

    Teaching application

    This could almost function as an entire pedagogical philosophy.

    5. “A Wave and a Particle”

    “It’s a wave and a particle.”

    Borrowing from physics, Ted describes mindfulness as:

    • both state and action

    • both being and doing

    • both process and phenomenon

    Meaning

    Mindfulness resists simplistic categorisation.

    Teaching application

    Helpful when discussing:

    • paradox

    • non-duality

    • complexity

    • embodied cognition

    6. “Another Star in the Constellation”

    “Another star in the constellation.”

    Used to describe secularity.

    Meaning

    Secular mindfulness is not opposing religion - it is one meaningful orientation among many.

    Deeper implication

    Pluralism rather than competition.

    Teaching application

    Excellent metaphor for:

    • interdisciplinary work

    • inclusion

    • coexistence of perspectives

    • integrative spirituality

    7. “Pebble Drop Exercise”

    Structure

    The pebble sinks:

    1. surface reasons

    2. deeper motivations

    3. core truths

    Meaning

    Human motivation has layers beneath conscious narrative.

    Deeper implication

    Practice deepens self-understanding over time.

    Teaching application

    Could be adapted beautifully for:

    • reflective writing

    • coaching

    • supervision

    • retreat exercises

    • healthcare education

    Possible reflection prompt

    “What lies beneath the first answer?”

    8. “Internal Weather Pattern”

    “What’s the internal weather pattern like?”

    Meaning

    Emotions and mental states are like weather:

    • changing

    • dynamic

    • impersonal

    • sometimes stormy

    • sometimes calm

    Deeper implication

    We do not become the weather; we observe and respond to it.

    Teaching application

    A very accessible trauma-sensitive metaphor.

    Particularly useful in:

    • burnout work

    • emotional regulation

    • mindfulness with beginners

    • healthcare staff support

    9. “The Heavy Lifting”

    “They’re doing the heavy lifting.”

    Meaning

    Transformation belongs to participants, not teachers.

    Deeper implication

    The teacher facilitates conditions - learners do the actual work.

    Teaching application

    Wonderful metaphor for:

    • learner autonomy

    • self-directed learning

    • coaching models

    • empowerment pedagogy

    10. “The Clock Doesn’t Stop at Five O’Clock”

    Meaning

    Mindfulness is not merely a professional role but a lived orientation.

    Deeper implication

    Identity and practice are continuous.

    Teaching application

    Excellent for discussions around:

    • authenticity

    • vocational identity

    • congruence

    • ethical embodiment

    11. “Putting a Spotlight on Others”

    Meaning

    Ted repeatedly describes his podcasts and social media as spotlighting others’ work.

    Deeper implication

    Leadership as illumination rather than self-promotion.

    Teaching application

    Powerful metaphor for:

    • servant leadership

    • collaborative pedagogy

    • mentorship

    • educational generosity

    12. “Mindfulness Is Not Just One Thing”

    This becomes a repeated conceptual metaphor.

    Meaning

    Mindfulness is multidimensional:

    • attention

    • discernment

    • ethics

    • embodiment

    • relationality

    • systems awareness

    Teaching implication

    Resists oversimplification.

    Very useful when challenging:

    • commodified mindfulness

    • app-based reductionism

    • “mindfulness = relaxation”

    13. “Random Pills Off the Shelf”

    “Listening to random meditations… is like going to the pharmacy and taking random pills off the shelf.”

    Meaning

    Unguided or decontextualised mindfulness practices may be inappropriate or even harmful.

    Deeper implication

    Practice requires discernment and relational guidance.

    Teaching application

    Useful for discussions around:

    • safeguarding

    • ethical teaching

    • AI mindfulness

    • app culture

    • trauma sensitivity

    14. “Gold Standard”

    Ted critiques this metaphor directly.

    Meaning

    The phrase suggests:

    • rigidity

    • unquestionability

    • fixed authority

    Deeper implication

    Even respected mindfulness structures should evolve.

    Teaching application

    Great for:

    • critical pedagogy

    • curriculum reform

    • institutional reflection

    • decolonising contemplative education

    15. “The Student Is Ready…”

    Ted reframes the classic saying:

    “Teachers are there the whole time.”

    Meaning

    Readiness is perceptual rather than magical.

    Deeper implication

    Learning depends on recognition and openness.

    Teaching application

    Beautiful for:

    • transformative learning

    • readiness theory

    • contemplative education

    16. “The Single Glint of a Peacock’s Tail”

    “A thousand and one details go into the single glint of a peacock’s tail.”

    Probably the most poetic metaphor in the interview.

    Meaning

    Every seemingly simple experience is supported by countless interconnected causes and conditions.

    Deeper implication

    Interdependence.

    Teaching application

    Perfect for:

    • systems thinking

    • ecological awareness

    • dependent origination

    • healthcare complexity

    • organisational design

  • Find out more about The Little Company of Calm here.

On the Cushion with Michael Chaskalson

Michael Chaskalson has been a pioneer in applying mindfulness to leadership and workplace contexts. Based in Cambridge, UK, he has fifty years of personal meditation practice and has spent decades helping to bring contemplative practices into mainstream society and corporate boardrooms. Michael is the founder of Mindfulness Works, a Professor of Practice (adjunct) at Hult Ashridge Executive Education, and an associate at the Møller Institute at Churchill College, in the University of Cambridge.

In this thought-provoking episode we dive deeply into Michael’s background in teaching mindfulness.

  • Michael is the author of The Mindful Workplace and the bestseller Mindfulness in Eight Weeks, and has co-authored Mindfulness for Coaches and Mind Time. His latest book, From Mindfulness to Wakefulness, is an attempt to broaden the current conversation around mindfulness to take in aspects of Awakening. As a teachers, speaker, coach, and consultant, Michael has introduced mindfulness-based practices to global corporations, public institutions, and business schools worldwide.

  • Click this text to listen on Spotify

  • 1. Teaching begins with listening

    Perhaps the most important teaching principle Michael articulates is:

    “Really, really carefully listening to hear what it is that they’re experiencing.”

    For him, teaching is not primarily about transmitting knowledge but understanding the learner’s lived experience.

    Implications for educators

    • Prioritise understanding before explaining.

    • Listen for the learner’s actual experience rather than the experience you expect them to have.

    • Develop empathic resonance rather than merely delivering content.

    • Use inquiry to uncover how learners are making sense of what is happening.

    This aligns strongly with:

    • Phenomenological approaches to education

    • Carl Rogers’ learner-centred teaching

    • Mindfulness-based inquiry

    • Clinical supervision and coaching

    2. Create psychological safety before learning can occur

    Before meaningful inquiry can happen, learners need to feel safe.

    Michael describes:

    • Pair discussions

    • Gentle introductions

    • Warming up the room

    • Reducing caution between participants

    Teaching takeaway

    Learning environments should be designed so that people can:

    • Speak honestly

    • Make mistakes

    • Share uncertainty

    • Explore experience without judgement

    3. Inquiry is more important than instruction

    A striking feature of his approach is how much emphasis he places on inquiry rather than explanation.

    His process:

    1. Practice

    2. Reflection

    3. Dialogue

    4. Clarification

    5. Further exploration

    Rather than saying:

    “This is what mindfulness is.”

    He asks:

    “What did you notice?”

    Educational principle

    Learning becomes deeper when learners:

    • Generate meaning themselves.

    • Explore experience directly.

    • Articulate their own understanding.

    This mirrors:

    • Experiential learning

    • Constructivism

    • Reflective practice

    4. Precision matters

    One reason Michael was attracted to contemporary mindfulness teaching was the psychological precision offered by modern psychology.

    He repeatedly emphasises:

    • Careful language

    • Accurate descriptions

    • Understanding mechanisms

    Teaching takeaway

    Good teaching requires:

    • Conceptual clarity

    • Precise language

    • Clear explanations of mechanisms

    This means moving beyond:

    • Vague concepts

    • Buzzwords

    • Simplistic explanations

    toward helping learners understand how and why things work.

    5. Minds are alike

    One of the most profound statements in the interview is:

    “Minds are alike.”

    His point is not that people are identical, but that human minds share common processes.

    Implications for teaching

    Teachers should:

    • Normalise learners’ struggles.

    • Reduce shame.

    • Help learners see that difficulties are part of being human.

    This is especially valuable in:

    • Professional training

    • Healthcare education

    • Wellbeing teaching

    Many learners believe:

    “I’m the only one struggling.”

    A skilled teacher helps reveal common humanity.

    6. Acceptance and growth can coexist

    A core philosophy underpinning his teaching is:

    “We’re all fine just as we are. And there’s room for a bit of improvement.”

    This avoids two educational traps:

    Trap 1: Deficit thinking

    “You need fixing.”

    Trap 2: Complacency

    “There’s nothing to learn.”

    Instead:

    • Accept current reality.

    • Encourage development.

    • Hold both simultaneously.

    This is remarkably close to:

    • Self-compassion research

    • Growth mindset

    • Adult learning theory

    7. Teachers improve through deliberate reflection

    One of the most practical lessons comes from his description of early teacher development.

    He, Kieran Saunders, and John Teasdale:

    • Recorded teaching sessions.

    • Listened back together.

    • Analysed interactions.

    • Gave detailed feedback.

    Teaching takeaway

    Expert teaching develops through:

    • Observation

    • Feedback

    • Reflection

    • Repeated practice

    Not simply through:

    • More qualifications

    • More reading

    • More experience

    For faculty development programmes this is a particularly powerful model.

    8. Teach mechanisms, not just techniques

    Michael repeatedly returns to a key question:

    “What mechanisms in the mind are we trying to affect?”

    This is a sophisticated educational stance.

    Rather than teaching:

    • Practices

    • Exercises

    • Tools

    He focuses on:

    • Underlying processes

    • Causes

    • Mechanisms

    Educational implication

    Learners become more adaptable when they understand:

    • Why something works.

    • When it works.

    • When it may not work.

    9. Don’t oversell outcomes

    One criticism he offers of contemporary mindfulness culture is that it has often been marketed as:

    • Relaxation

    • Stress reduction

    • Emptying the mind

    He argues this creates unrealistic expectations.

    Teaching lesson

    Avoid promising:

    • Quick fixes

    • Transformation

    • Guaranteed outcomes

    Instead:

    • Describe learning honestly.

    • Emphasise process.

    • Encourage curiosity.

    This principle applies well beyond mindfulness education.

    10. The goal is not information but transformation

    Near the end of the interview he says:

    “I’d deeply love it if anyone thought that as a result of our interaction they’d been set on a path of exploring the nature of mind.”

    This suggests his deepest educational aspiration is not knowledge transfer.

    It is helping people embark on a lifelong inquiry.

    Educational takeaway

    The most enduring teaching may not be:

    • What students remember.

    • What students can recite.

    But whether they become:

    • More curious

    • More reflective

    • More self-aware

    • More committed to ongoing learning

    Five key principles in one sentence each

    1. Listen before you teach.

    2. Create safety before inquiry.

    3. Help learners explore rather than merely explain.

    4. Normalise human experience while encouraging growth.

    5. Aim to transform how people relate to themselves, not just what they know.

  • 1. Wakefulness versus Sleep

    This is the central metaphor of the interview.

    Rather than framing mindfulness as relaxation or stress reduction, Michael frames it as:

    “Waking up to how things really are.”

    He positions:

    • Sleep = automaticity, habitual reactivity, unconscious living

    • Wakefulness = increasing awareness, compassion, ethics, joy and insight

    • Full awakening = the complete expression of these qualities

    Why it matters

    This metaphor:

    • Broadens mindfulness beyond attention training.

    • Links mindfulness to human flourishing.

    • Creates a developmental rather than binary model.

    His key contribution is that wakefulness occurs by degree rather than as an all-or-nothing event.

    2. The Pebble Rolling Down the Hill

    Speaking about introducing the term wakefulness, he says:

    “I hope I have set a tiny pebble rolling down a hill.”

    Meaning

    Ideas are like small stones.

    A modest intervention today may eventually trigger much larger cultural changes.

    Teaching application

    Teachers rarely see the full impact of what they do.

    A single:

    • conversation,

    • insight,

    • question,

    • experience,

    may continue unfolding long after the teaching event.

    3. The Mind as an Ongoing Narrative Machine

    One of the richest metaphors in the interview is:

    “Talking ourselves into existence.”

    He describes the default mode network as continually:

    “telling yourself the story of your life over and over and over again.”

    Meaning

    Identity is not fixed.

    Instead, the self is continually being constructed through narrative.

    The mind is portrayed as a storyteller creating a sense of “me.”

    Educational significance

    This metaphor helps explain:

    • rumination,

    • self-concept,

    • emotional suffering,

    • mindfulness practice.

    The aim is not to stop stories but to develop a different relationship to them.

    4. A Different Relationship to the Narrative

    He repeatedly uses relational language:

    “Come into a different relationship with the narratives.”

    Meaning

    Thoughts are not enemies.

    The goal is not:

    • suppression,

    • control,

    • elimination.

    Instead, thoughts become something we can relate to differently.

    Why this is useful

    Many students arrive believing:

    “I need to stop thinking.”

    This metaphor reframes mindfulness as changing the relationship rather than changing the content.

    5. The Temperature Check

    When discussing executive coaching he says:

    “A tiny temperature take.”

    Meaning

    Coaching is not a complete picture.

    It is more like taking the temperature of a complex system at one moment in time.

    Leadership implications

    Leaders and teachers often only see fragments of reality.

    Humility is required because:

    • the whole system is never fully visible.

    • what is presented is only a sample.

    6. The Path

    The interview repeatedly invokes the metaphor of a path.

    Examples include:

    • The Icknield Way walks.

    • The Buddhist path.

    • Being “set on a path.”

    • The Eightfold Path.

    Meaning

    Learning is:

    • developmental,

    • ongoing,

    • directional.

    It is not a destination.

    This metaphor quietly structures much of the interview.

    7. Exploring the Nature of Mind

    He hopes learners:

    “continue to explore the nature of mind.”

    The mind is implicitly treated as a landscape or territory.

    Meaning

    Learning becomes exploration rather than acquisition.

    The teacher is:

    • guide,

    • companion,

    • fellow explorer,

    rather than expert dispensing knowledge.

    This metaphor is deeply consistent with inquiry-based learning.

    8. Mindfulness as a Muscle of Attention

    Although not explicitly stated, it is implied through his description:

    “noticing and choosing, noticing and choosing.”

    Attention is portrayed almost like a trainable capacity.

    The ability to:

    • notice,

    • redirect,

    • choose,

    is strengthened through practice.

    Teaching implication

    Mindfulness is not a belief system.

    It is a trainable skill.

    9. “Settling Into” Experience

    When describing walking he says:

    “an opportunity to really settle into the environment and into myself.”

    Meaning

    Awareness is not something added.

    It is something one relaxes into.

    The metaphor suggests:

    • grounding,

    • inhabiting,

    • arriving.

    Rather than striving.

    10. The Room for Improvement Metaphor

    One of the most elegant lines in the interview:

    “We’re all fine just as we are. And there’s room for a bit of improvement.”

    The metaphor is spatial.

    There is “room” for growth.

    Why it’s powerful

    It avoids:

    • perfectionism,

    • self-criticism,

    • complacency.

    Acceptance and development coexist in the same psychological space.

    11. Leadership as Ripples Through a System

    Although not stated explicitly, it is implied when he discusses coaching CEOs.

    A leader’s inner state affects:

    “the way they are in their contexts and how that affects others.”

    The metaphor is essentially ecological or ripple-based.

    Inner attitudes spread outward through relationships and systems.

    Educational parallel

    Teachers function similarly.

    The quality of a teacher’s presence affects:

    • learners,

    • groups,

    • cultures,

    • institutions.

    12. “The World is Singing”

    His opening response:

    “Fresh green leaves, the world is singing.”

    Meaning

    This poetic metaphor suggests an awakened relationship to ordinary experience.

    Nature is not merely observed but encountered as alive and expressive.

    It reflects one of the themes running through the interview:

    Wakefulness is not simply awareness; it is increased access to awe, joy, beauty and connection.

  • Find out more about Michael and his work here.